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December 03, 2004
Where is Callander? II
Yesterday I was wondering why so many people, including the Bank of Scotland and Scottish Gas, think that Callander is in Perthshire and not Stirlingshire, although Stirling Council are providing all the services here.
Today I found the ‘Vision of Britain’ site. Despite the inappropriate name, this is an excellent map site, with a wealth of information about the political geography of Britain.
I now understand that all the Scottish counties, including Perthshire and Stirlingshire, were abolished In 1975. They were replaced by ‘district/unitary authorities’. Confusingly many areas are still called X-shire or Y-shire, and there are still bodies called ‘county councils’, even though counties no longer exist.
Perthshire and Stirlingshire were changed into ‘Perth and Kinross’ and ‘Stirling’, dropping the ‘shires’ and redrawing the boundaries. Those villages and towns, like Callander, in the southwest of former Perthshire evidently decided to keep their traditional addresses, rather than completely lose any kind of county designation at all. The shires dated back to the late medieval period, so it’s not surprising that many people still want to maintain them - at least in name!
www.visionofbritain.org.uk/index.jsp
Posted by Simon Holledge at December 3, 2004 02:11 AM
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Comments
-"The shires dated back to the late medieval period..."
Not sure about that. Wikipedia says that Scotland's county councils only date from 1889. The traditional unit of local government appears to have been the burgh. They were never referred to as "The Shires", as they often are in England. ("County" is a peculiar linguistic anacronism in Britain, as neither England nor Scotland had "Count" as a grade of the aristocracy - must have arrived in the languages via Norman French. The Eng and Scot equivalent would be "Earl", and thus logically "Earldom" not "County". Margaret Thatcher, in one of her wilder, later outbursts, claimed that the English should desist from using the alien continental term "county".)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subdivisions_of_Scotland
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditional_counties_of_Scotland
-"so it’s not surprising that many people still want to maintain them"
No, they are only following the correct, official Royal Mail instructions re correct postal addresses - use the old county designation. Nothing sentimental about it. So the people of Sunart, Ardgour, Ardnamurchan and Morvern should properly use Argyll (not the hideous "Argyllshire") even though they are now in Highland. But the anachronisms continue, because the postal town for Ardgour (which was in Argyll) is Fort William and hence "Inverness-shire". The official RM database is full of tiny oddities like that.
Posted by: Stuart Dickson at January 6, 2005 10:09 PM
Thanks.
Wikipedia distinguishes between 'traditional counties' and 'county councils' which as you say are 19th century. Perthshire evidently existed in the 18th century, maybe earlier.
Since I wrote the entry (above), I found that the Royal Mail was using the old county designations, as you say. Actually the more I look into it, the more illogical it all seems. (Astonishing that a postal service can use addresses that contradict the political geography!)
The Portsmouth University website 'A Vision of Britain' explanation about the Scottish counties is here:
www.visionofbritain.org.uk/au_ft/type_page.jsp?unit_type=SCO_CNTY
Posted by: Simon Holledge at January 7, 2005 11:49 PM
Wee update for you.
I've just sent this feedback to the BBC News website "feedback - Style, accuracy and grammar" section re a news item they published today:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4158641.stm
-"It is "Moray", not "Morayshire".
You only add "-shire" in Scotland if the former county was based on a county town (eg. Renfrewshire) but not if it is named after the wider district. Hence: Argyll, Angus, Orkney, Midlothian, Sutherland, Moray etc. Not Argyllshire, Angus-shire, Orkneyshire, Midlothianshire, Sutherlandshire or ... Morayshire! These sound ridiculous to Scots' ears!
Besides, counties were abolished in Scotland back in 1975. When are the BBC going to catch up? The current local authority is called Moray Council. Perhaps you had better update your geographical database from:
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/sct/sct_cmap.html
to:
http://www.scotland.gov.uk/library3/localgov/fs12-02.asp
Please note that today there are only 6 "-shire" names remaining on our map:
-Aberdeenshire
-Clackmannanshire
-Dunbartonshire
-Lanarkshire
-Renfrewshire
-Ayrshire
Further on you state:-"A84 Stirlingshire closed both ways between Doune and Callandar."
Doune and Callander (and the road between them) are not only not in "Stirlingshire" today (the local authority is called simply Stirling, for very good reasons) but they never were in the old, pre-1975 county of "Stirlingshire". They were in Perthshire.
Please educate your journalists. The BBC's copy is riddled with childish errors like this.
I note that in the same article your journalist manages to avoid using the term "Cumbriashire". Now why is that?"
I did not bother pointing out that they also mis-spelled "Callander". Easy mistake!
Posted by: Stuart Dickson at January 10, 2005 10:31 AM
Good luck with the BBC.
I have also written to the same BBC News website 'feedback - Style, accuracy and grammar' section - to point out that their explanation of how to pronounce 'tsunami' is wrong (they give 'soo-nam-ee' instead of tsoo-nah-mee). Even George Bush can get this right, but not the BBC. They have ignored my message, of course!
Posted by: Simon Holledge at January 10, 2005 02:30 PM